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Defining 'real': Was Jenni Murray wrong to say trans women are not real women?

Defining 'real': Was Jenni Murray wrong to say trans women are not real women?
Defining 'real': Was Jenni Murray wrong to say trans women are not real women? Defining 'real': Was Jenni Murray wrong to say trans women are not real women?

BBC Women’s Hour presenter and journalist Jenni Murray wrote an opinion piece in the Sunday Times last week entitled Be trans, be proud – but don’t call yourself a “real woman”.

She also referred to transgender women she has interviewed or spoken with in the past, including Reverend Carol Stone, who expressed that after she transitioned she worried about what to wear, and India Willoughby, who described hairy legs as “dirty”.

In the piece, Murray says she is not transphobic but claims these women lack experience and understanding of what it is to be a woman because they were able to enjoy male privilege.

The piece has sparked a backlash from the transgender community and its allies, with LGBTQ charity Stonewall calling her comments “reductive and hurtful” in a statement.We asked some transgender women and allies to help us unpack the issues.What is a ‘real woman’ anyway?

The crux of Murray’s argument is that male-to-female transgender people cannot be ‘real’ women because they lack the gendered socialisation of a cis-gendered (someone who identifies with the sex they were born) female.

One trans woman she interviewed, Jenny Roberts, agrees, saying: “We’re taught as boys that assertiveness and aggression are good things in a man.

“There’s a danger, even now, that I will act as a man, for instance interrupting and leading a discussion.”

However, whether this constitutes being a ‘real’ woman is still being debated.

On a blog written about her reaction to the piece, business owner and prospective parliamentary candidate for Chippenham Helen Belcher talks about Murray’s definition. “It seems to be thinking like her or having some level of common experience from an early age…“In terms of common experiences, which ones? Or is it simply growing up as a girl in 1950s Yorkshire? Because my 18-year-old Berkshire-born daughter certainly doesn’t seem to have had the same struggles as girls of the 50s and 60s.”Belcher goes on to write “Why is it even acceptable to state in national media that one particular group of people isn’t real?”

Teacher Debbie Hayton says that although she was “distressed” by the headline, the ideas about socialisation developed in the article are worthy of consideration.

“The experience of a woman who transitioned MTF in midlife is different to the experience of a woman who was socialised as a girl – or even someone who transitioned MTF at a young age whose socialisation is different.

“All three experiences are equally valid but they are different. The article addressed this and therefore contributed to the debate.”

The problem with box ticking

Natalie Washington, a trans woman who co-founded website nGendr to provide a platform for a diverse range of trans and non-binary people’s voices, warns against using “arbitrary criteria” to define what is a real woman, man or human.She said: “People have always tried to exclude some women from being ‘real women’ by virtue of race, disability, weight, sexuality, life choices etc. We’ve all seen the Facebook posts saying only mothers or women over a size 12 are ‘real women’.“Similarly men are often hurt by being called ‘not a real man’ for all sorts of reasons.”Can you be a feminist if you weren’t born female?

Murray cites trans women who appear not to ascribe to feminist views or show misunderstanding about historical and current women’s struggles as part of her case.

She claims Willoughby’s assertion that she is a “real woman” ignores “the fact that she had spent all of her life before her transition enjoying the privileged position in our society generally accorded to a man” and that in making her comments about leg hair and female appearance, she showed not “a hint of understanding that she was simply playing into the stereotype – a man’s idea of what a woman should be”.

We discussed the idea of the female socialisation experience above, so let’s delve into the depths of whether espousing feminist views or views based on women’s rights historically also makes you a woman.

Washington says “I can understand that [Murray] would have been disappointed in the attitudes and opinions of some of the people she referred to in the piece, but it’s not fair to judge a whole group by the actions of some within it, and most of all – it doesn’t change who they are.

“We don’t call into question the womanhood of cis-gender women if they hold un-feminist views, and neither should we for transgender women.”

Murray has presented Women’s Hour since 1987 (Ian West/PA)

Bernard Reed, trustee of the Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES), concurs: “The cases that Jenni Murray cites are not typical. She has clearly met few of the trans women on whom she is trying to impose her own definition of their identities. In any case, what would give her the right to define them?”

“Moreover, Jenni Murray appears ignorant of the large body of scientific evidence, referenced by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health, the World Health Organisation and The Lancet, on the neurobiological influences on gender identity development.”

In her blog, Washington defends the right to call out misogyny in the trans community, but adds: “Just don’t contribute to the already pervasive societal opinion that we’re all frauds.”